Wednesday, September 24, 2014
The Augustine Discussion
Today's class undoubtedly sparked many questions and ideas however left me with many questions. Looking at my notes I have many question marks all over the pages. Due to the numerous question marks I decided to make this post and hopefully reach some clarification. Augustine finds that virtues are bad because they lead to internal conflict, which is very much frowned upon. These virtues are also bad because we have endless desires.Vanity is as well frowned upon because wanting to be made happy by your own actions implies independence. I do not understand how this could be a bad thing? Why does Augustine not applaud the individual on not finding happiness from oneself? What if one finds happiness from doing service at their Church alone. This is in a way helping God and his Church but by his own actions. I feel as though this should be applauded enough to perhaps go to heaven. If God does not approve of independent actions while alive, will he then not grant the opportunity to go to heaven?
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In response to Jacqueline’s comment, my understanding is that Augustine frowns upon vanity and virtue because they are earthly or natural capacities. These capacities may be certain kinds of gifts, but he believes that the most divine gift we can be given in this life is faith. Augustine believes that faith must precede reason, because despite what a “virtuous” man might tell you, happiness is not achievable on earth. Augustine believes that the “final good,” is what makes us happy and this involves eternal life with God our creator. To Augustine, our happiness is therefore not dependent on earthly actions, and happiness certainly cannot come from within- our relationship with God will determine our capacity to find happiness in another life. So, I don’t think it’s so much a question of why Augustine doesn’t applaud us for finding happiness in ourselves, but rather, I think Augustine would respond to Jacqueline’s comment that finding happiness “in ourselves” is actually impossible. Even church service sounds like an activity which is not totally grounded in earthly capacities because it is in the name of God, and therefore probably isn’t completely “selfish,” but still cannot have the effect of making someone happy.
ReplyDelete- Lexi
Augustine says that our actions can be loved if they are for the well-being of the subjects. I understood subjects to mean the subjects of God. We can be happy with our actions if they promote harmonious peace, which will bring us to eternal life, the final good. Eternal life is what we should strive for and will make us happy, but it is not necessarily the only thing that makes us happy. Augustine seems to say that we can be happy with our actions if they are working toward a divine purpose.
ReplyDeleteAs we said in class, happiness can be dependent on the hope we have for the future. Without hope, we have no chance at happiness but, similarly, without faith we have no chance of living in God's way and thus, also have no chance at happiness. To respond to Jacqueline, one cannot live life gaining happiness from their own actions because if that were true, then we would be able to live happily in solitude, which I believe to be impossible. We must rely on God and our faith in God in order to have a possibility of happiness. Faith cannot be broken, therefore, through God, we can be guided to happiness if we act in accordance with Him. But, nevertheless, we cannot achieve happiness on our own.
ReplyDeleteGoing along with Lexi and Johnny’s comments, I also understood that Augustine’s view of virtue and vanity being bad was due to their comparison with faith. Augustine believes that faith will always precede reason, and in this case virtue and vanities represent reason. Virtuous actions are for the most part self-centered actions, and bring us further away from God. To become close to God and ultimately achieve happiness, we must strive for a positive freedom and turn our will completely towards God. With this said, one would never be able to find happiness in themselves, but will only become happy when they put selfish actions to the side and allow for God’s assistance.
ReplyDeleteI understood Augustine’s belief that the means of achieving happiness lies with God alone, but it also helps when we turn our will towards God. Because of this happiness, Augustine classifies and describes it as a “final good… that through which it is perfected, and so exists fully." Since the final good is perfection, which can only be found in and with God, we can establish that the final good isn’t happiness, but it can assist us in what can make us happy. As mentioned in class, “hope in the future is the key to happiness.” Augustine states that pure and absolute happiness can only be found with God, so we can associate the “hope in the future” as hope in the after-life, or life with God.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Jacqueline's post, I think there are many confusions as to what Augustine in actually trying to say; however, I don't think he was implying that we cannot be happy on earth. I think what he may have been trying to say was that we should not selfishly seek to make ourselves happy and instead find happiness in helping others. Ultimately, we will never be fully happy until we reach our "final good", which is eternal life in heaven, but we can still be happy on earth. As Johnny said, our actions that promote peace and are for the good of others are those in which can make us happy on earth and will eventually lead us to our eternal happiness with God.
ReplyDeleteIf we cannot be fully happy until we reach our "final good" in heaven, then what qualifies earthly happiness? Is there such a thing as "partial happiness?" If we cannot quantify happiness in some absolute or concrete way, I think the concept itself may lose meaning.
DeleteThis part also confuses me a bit, but I think it relates back to the difference Meghan explained many classes ago between the phrases "being happy" and "having happiness." I believe Augustine would say people are able to be happy by having faith in God, and by being kind and helpful towards others (maybe this could be partial happiness). However, actually having complete happiness can only be found in eternal life. During life, happiness often fluctuates. There are times when we are completely content and other time when we are suffering from some sort of loss. Therefore, this may be why we cannot have total happiness. In contrast, my understanding is that eternal life is where we find complete and steady happiness from God.
DeleteTo my understanding, the happiness Augustine is referring to the highest or "final" good which rests in our relationship with God. Virtues apply only to things that we experience in our human lives and are at war with the vices that lead us a stray from God. Therefore, true happiness as Augustine defines it could only be achieved in Heaven when we are with God, the one towards whom our good will and reason are directed towards.
DeleteIn my notes I have have written that "God is ultimate reason" and that "faith precedes reason". I am still unsure as to what this means. Could anyone clarify what Augustine is trying to say?
ReplyDeleteI believe that "faith before reason" means that we place God above all other reasons for our actions. "God is the ultimate reason" and everything we do should be for performing his will. After faith comes reason itself, or logic as I understood it. God is a priority in our lives which comes before logic. Another way I looked at it is that God is logic, or common sense. So we should act according to how God wants us to act.
ReplyDeleteHope that helps somewhat,
Johnny
Johnny if God is the ultimate force of reason in our lives does that mean that atheists are void of reason? I understand that Augustine is a very devote Catholic, but his it seems as if his idea of faith before reason contradicts many ancient philosophers. Aristotle for example obviously was not aware of Christ and thus did not possess the necessary faith to have the ultimate reason. Yet, Aristotle and other thinkers like him certainly possessed reason.
DeleteAugustine thinks that our end goal is an eternal life with God; therefore, all of the actions that we perform in life must be in order to achieve this eternal life. Because we are doing these actions for God, they are considered selfless acts. We must act selflessly throughout life in order to obtain happiness in heaven. Those who do selfish acts will never truly be happy. Although doing something selfish may please you for a short amount of time, it will not bring you to eternal life, or bring you closer to God. I think Augustine is saying that true happiness doesn't come until we reach heaven, and it cannot be obtained without selfless acts throughout life.
ReplyDeleteIn class we talked a lot about how virtue causes internal wars, thus putting them in a negative light in Augustine's eyes. I was just wondering if anyone could give me an example of a virtue that causes an internal war, and how this would be negative?
ReplyDeleteAugustine's issue doesn't seem to be in having found happiness in one's self. But more in looking for happiness within one's self. Augustine was a deeply religious man due to all of the desires and experiences he had as a young man. So for him the only way to achieve true happiness is through others.
ReplyDeleteI understand Augustine believes happiness can only be found in eternal life, and I can understand and even agree with many of his reasons. However, I’m having a little trouble relating it back to life. Many of the other writers we have read have pointed out that happiness is the ultimate goal, and this is in line with our thinking today. If you keep asking someone why they do something, such as work at Apple, they will eventually say because it makes me happy. I can also think of countless people who are happy and have happiness. As a totally random example, I would say that Betty White has happiness. She is about 92 and has lived a pretty incredible life. Granted I am on the outside, but I can imagine her having a great deal of happiness. It makes me wonder whether or not Augustine would say she does. Based off his writing it seems he would say no, but it is hard for me to agree when I see so much evidence that Betty White and my own Grandmother have happiness.
ReplyDeleteA useful quote that may add to the discussion can be found on 143. Augustine is talking about earlier notions of happiness when he said, "...they wanted to be happy here and now and, through an astonishing vanity, they wanted to be made happy by their own actions." This just re-asserts what I feel is the main point of the piece. The true happiness cannot be achieved though our own actions, we may take pleasure in them but they are not the source of the final good. Working for Apple may give you pleasure in this life and make you feel good about yourself but it does not hold the key to eternal life with God.
ReplyDelete